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The Men's movement v feminism.

Patrick

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I made a point of meeting Cassie Jaye when she was at the Men's Conference this last July - and said "thanks".
This little video may help avoid some of the possible arguments between those who have been fed myths about men and women in a world of rights and wrongs.

 

JohnH

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"When you start to humanise your enemy, you in turn may be dehumanised by your community." One of the witch hunt strategies.
 

Patrick

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"When you start to humanise your enemy, you in turn may be dehumanised by your community." One of the witch hunt strategies.
Indeed - throughout history the obligatory tactic is swift denunciation of anyone who defects from the shouty pitchfork gang towards questioning and logic...
If it isn't done swiftly - people may stop to listen.

Ergo - our job is to be like Cassie Jaye in that talk - get their attention, away from the pitchfork mob...
 

Roy catchpole

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"When you start to humanise your enemy, you in turn may be dehumanised by your community." One of the witch hunt strategies.
...and if I may say, one of the discouraging things is, that once you've humanised your accuser, and tried to understand where she's coming from, and the community dehumanises you, you find yourself out in the wilderness, sat in a ducking-chair, waiting for their 'GOD' to pronounce judgement. It's not a good place to be. But be encouraged, John H. At least we're here, and many of us have been there and come through their evil machinations. The good news is, they lose more often than they win. We don't always lose, even though at the moment you may feel differently. It's no fun waiting to be dunked.
 

Roy catchpole

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Indeed - throughout history the obligatory tactic is swift denunciation of anyone who defects from the shouty pitchfork gang towards questioning and logic...
If it isn't done swiftly - people may stop to listen.

Ergo - our job is to be like Cassie Jaye in that talk - get their attention, away from the pitchfork mob...
Love it, Patrick, 'The shouty-pitchfork mob.' nice.
 

franticwithworry

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A powerful and honest speech that should be required listening. I understand what Patrick is saying too, but have to say that my grand parents and parents had much more respect for one another as men and women, than many do today. They are all dead now, of course, but it all seems to have gone so badly and sadly wrong. No time in history has been perfect, and there have frequently been pockets of horror, but these days the whole world seems to have gone mad.
 

Patrick

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A powerful and honest speech that should be required listening. I understand what Patrick is saying too, but have to say that my grand parents and parents had much more respect for one another as men and women, than many do today. They are all dead now, of course, but it all seems to have gone so badly and sadly wrong. No time in history has been perfect, and there have frequently been pockets of horror, but these days the whole world seems to have gone mad.
I do agree -
and worldwide there are many places where there is none of this whining about imaginary wrongs done by the whole other gender
the problem to me lies with Feminism achieving nearly all their stated goals - equality in work, pay, status - so much more...
but the #FalseFeminists not being satisfied with this - and still wanting to fight the war with some vague memory of "patriarchy"...
but not being happy with who they are they seek to take some kind of revenge via victimhood status, and money from the system, whilst putting innocent men down.

The way these people have reacted to Cassie illustrates perfectly the mentality of the pitchfork mob when one of their mob points out they are wearing monster's clothing.
 

JohnH

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have to say that my grand parents and parents had much more respect for one another as men and women, than many do today.
I agree with you there - and my parents taught me to be polite. These days our entire culture seems to be taken over by dislike, even morphing to hate. It's become normal - I'm sure in large part because that is the example we are fed on a daily basis. Our leaders and the media seem to thrive on putting everyone down. News programs today have become (quasi-) cerebral wrestling matches between conflicting opinions with newscasters replaced by "star refererees" whose job seems to be provoking dissent between their disagreeable 'guests'. Kids learn by example - and the examples put in their faces every day are a disgrace to civilization. Is there anyone pointing out that civilized SOCIETY requires people to get along respectfully and recognise the contributions made by their peers so that lives become better rather than decaying through hatred?
It's a fundamental problem with 'feminism' too. As the OP suggests, it should be about giving EVERYONE the opportunities to contribute their best so that we can all gain rather than fighting to diminish one group versus another.
 

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The thing is that women who consider themselves to be Radical Feminists are too young to have lived through the times when women really were marginalised - expected to give up work when they married, unable to get a loan in their own name if they did happen to be married and working, no access to a work pension, no access to child care, expected to only take part-time work and fit in the child care round it etc etc.

I considered myself to be a feminist at a time when women were asking for the same considerations that men had, and looked for ways to make visible the many women who had contributed to society but been ignored. My father was a feminist in the true sense of the word before it was invented. These days, however, feminism is what my father would be calling a dirty word. :)
 

Patrick

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I think I was a feminist right up till about 2005 - despite its worst aspects impacting my career back in 1997
but yes - it used to be real strong women trying to encourage others to be strong.

Nowadays its sad and weak arseholes encouraging women to be victims so they can rally around the "lets all be sad flag".
this is why I describe them as #FalseFeminsts -
real feminists were warriors for fairness and justice, not destroyers of those two things.
 

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Another night of little sleep but I came across this -

https://quillette.com/2018/11/10/camille-paglia-its-time-for-a-new-map-of-the-gender-world/

What Camille has to say about the #metoo movement is very interesting and I can tentatively claim her vocabulary and call myself an 'equity feminist'. Thanks, Camille! I liked what she said about men and women's roles before the industrial revolution too which goes some way to explain my grandparents' thinking as explained earlier.
 

Patrick

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Another night of little sleep but I came across this -

https://quillette.com/2018/11/10/camille-paglia-its-time-for-a-new-map-of-the-gender-world/

What Camille has to say about the #metoo movement is very interesting and I can tentatively claim her vocabulary and call myself an 'equity feminist'. Thanks, Camille! I liked what she said about men and women's roles before the industrial revolution too which goes some way to explain my grandparents' thinking as explained earlier.
and thanks so much for finding this.
Paglia.jpg

excellent piece -
I still think "equity feminist" will be a failed attempt to recover what the word "Feminist" actually meant back in the 1980s.
To me the rejection and branding that is a clear and present danger to anyone who has made a reasoned argument against Feminism as it now projects itself, means that this word can never be recovered

But her analysis is good. and refreshing.
and I will re- post it on Twitter.
 

Roy catchpole

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and thanks so much for finding this.
View attachment 56
excellent piece -
I still think "equity feminist" will be a failed attempt to recover what the word "Feminist" actually meant back in the 1980s.
To me the rejection and branding that is a clear and present danger to anyone who has made a reasoned argument against Feminism as it now projects itself, means that this word can never be recovered

But her analysis is good. and refreshing.
and I will re- post it on Twitter.
Good. saves me doing it. Like you suggest, too many people have made too high commitment to the current trend of feminism to turn back now. It would mean confessing guilt and admitting wrong.
 

franticwithworry

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I doubt the term 'equity feminist' will find popular acclaim either, but on a personal level I'm happy to quietly use it. We can never go back to the feminism of any past time as history moves on but hopefully some of the blatant misandry can be mitigated. it's important that there is a way to reject present-day Radical Feminism. Thank you for posting this on twitter, Patrick.
 

Patrick

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good stuff -
and re her message on the need to totally reshape history education to tackle this, I agree about teaching to deep roots of our culture - and how modern feminism is a sad pile of soggy tissues hiding the reality of our interdependence and separate domains.

I would like to see it made relevant however - by going backwards from the present day as a starting point - what Granddad did - - and then his Granddad - and so on and so on - until we see the route to where we are from before the Romans.

and as for those women who say things like, "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle..."
I would respond - Women without men have no fish and no bicycles

I see the Feminists saying that a world without men would be possible, all they need is the frozen sperm...
and I picture them, in this brave new world:
all clothed in rotting knitwear,
huddled around a tallow candle in their sole surviving hole-ridden tent,
staring at the last remaining jar of food and wondering how they will open it.

we need each other to survive one generation, never mind multiple future ones.
 

franticwithworry

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good stuff -
and re her message on the need to totally reshape history education to tackle this, I agree about teaching to deep roots of our culture - and how modern feminism is a sad pile of soggy tissues hiding the reality of our interdependence and separate domains.

I would like to see it made relevant however - by going backwards from the present day as a starting point - what Granddad did - - and then his Granddad - and so on and so on - until we see the route to where we are from before the Romans.

and as for those women who say things like, "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle..."
I would respond - Women without men have no fish and no bicycles

I see the Feminists saying that a world without men would be possible, all they need is the frozen sperm...
and I picture them, in this brave new world:
all clothed in rotting knitwear,
huddled around a tallow candle in their sole surviving hole-ridden tent,
staring at the last remaining jar of food and wondering how they will open it.

we need each other to survive one generation, never mind multiple future ones.
We do - but that is speaking generally, as we should, but let's not forget that some choose not to have a spouse/partner or to have children and those are valid choices outside of mysoginy and misandry. I will admit that when I was a single parent and not, at any price, wanting another relationship, I took pride in the fact that I could do almost anything I needed to do to provide for my family and keep it reasonably comfortable including 90% of the DIY tasks usually allocated to men. I could pay a man to do the other 10% and send him on his merry way. :) Now happily remarried, I delight in the fact that the responsibility for everything is not mine and my husband and I share tasks according to talent and ability.

To use your own analogy, Patrick, I can see a world with no children because the men have the good sense to not provide sperm for freezing, but the boys and men that remain sit around naked and hungry because they cannot sew on a button, patch a pair of jeans or cook the fish. :)

My father taught me that men and women are equal but different and that each should be able to do whatever they want to do, intellect and physique providing. We complement each other but in a culture where typing pools populated by women became the norm because men essentially tired of the new technology and handed it over to women, we have a long way to go. The industrial revolution has a lot to answer for.
 

Patrick

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To use your own analogy, Patrick, I can see a world with no children because the men have the good sense to not provide sperm for freezing, but the boys and men that remain sit around naked and hungry because they cannot sew on a button, patch a pair of jeans or cook the fish. :)

My father taught me that men and women are equal but different and that each should be able to do whatever they want to do, intellect and physique providing. We complement each other but in a culture where typing pools populated by women became the norm because men essentially tired of the new technology and handed it over to women, we have a long way to go. The industrial revolution has a lot to answer for.
I am with you on so much of this - and yes, individuals need to be free to choose a single life, of course, but the societal needs require the survival of both sexes to enable the world to survive our mistakes along the way.

(P.S. I do all the cooking and sewing, patching and mending in this house!)
 

Roy catchpole

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I am with you on so much of this - and yes, individuals need to be free to choose a single life, of course, but the societal needs require the survival of both sexes to enable the world to survive our mistakes along the way.

(P.S. I do all the cooking and sewing, patching and mending in this house!)
...I do most of the ironing and sewing, I just like it - so satisfying getting my socks nice and flat.
 
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